Episode 7: Moms First / BCG Report on Childcare Benefits ROI & What Does UPS, Steamboat, Etsy, Fast Retailing and Synchrony Offer as Childcare Benefits

Episode 7: Childcare Tax Credit Programs - A Deep Dive with Greg and Doug

Welcome back to the newly renamed Childcare Tax Break Breakdown, where we dissect the latest in childcare tax credits and benefits that employers can leverage. In this episode, we've covered a lot of ground, from state care policies to innovative employer strategies.

State Care Policy Report Cards

We kicked off with a discussion about The Century Foundation's report card on state care policies. No state scored an A, but some are making strides with Bs. Massachusetts, California, Colorado, Minnesota, and Oregon topped the list, while others lagged behind. The report card seems to be a wake-up call for states to improve their care infrastructure.

Michigan's Childcare Initiatives

Michigan is ahead of the game, surpassing its goal of creating 1,000 new childcare programs by 2025. The state's focus on recruiting staff, local incubation funds, and grants for new centers is a model for others to follow.

Oklahoma's Tax Credit for Family Caregivers

Oklahoma introduced a tax credit for family caregivers, a first of its kind, to alleviate some financial burdens. It's a step in the right direction, though the $1.5 million cap seems modest compared to the overall unpaid care provided in the state.

Georgia Expands Childcare Tax Credit

Georgia is making childcare more affordable by increasing the tax credit from $3,000 to $4,000 per dependent, which will result in about $50 in tax savings per child.

Alabama's Proposed Employer Incentives

Alabama is considering a bill that would provide tax credits to employers who offer childcare, aiming to boost workforce participation and address the staffing shortage in childcare providers.

Moms First and BCG Report

The highlight of our episode was the Moms First and Boston Consulting Group event at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. The report titled "The Employee Benefit That Pays for Itself" showcased how companies like Steamboat, Fast Retailing, UPS, Synchrony, and Etsy are offering childcare benefits with a positive ROI. Retaining just 1% of eligible employees can cover the cost of these benefits, and companies are seeing returns as high as 425%.

Employer Childcare Benefits

• Steamboat: Near-site childcare center with a 20% discount for employees.
• Fast Retailing: Monthly $1,000 stipend for childcare.
• UPS: Pilot program for emergency onsite childcare for hourly workers.
• Synchrony: 60 days of backup care annually, with a mix of reimbursement and vendor-provided care.
• Etsy: Up to $4,000 annually in backup care credits and a $1,000 annual work-life stipend.

Closing Thoughts

We wrapped up with a fun fact linking back to one of our earlier episodes about Colorado's employer-based childcare design lab, which Steamboat utilized. It's been a journey, and seeing the impact of these programs come full circle is truly rewarding.

Remember, folks, the time to invest in childcare benefits is now. The data is clear, and the returns are real. Until next time, keep brea

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Welcome to the Tax Break Breakdown with your hosts, greg and Doug. Sit back and relax while they review current and upcoming child care tax credit programs employers can take advantage of. Now on to the show.

Speaker 2: 0:17

We time it perfectly.

Speaker 1: 0:19

I do and I can.

Speaker 2: 0:21

Welcome everybody to Episode 7 of the Tax Break Breakdown with your host, greg, and Doug. Round of applause. This episode. I think there's a lot to cover, doug. By the way, doug and I have been traveling for the last couple weeks.

Speaker 2: 0:42

There has been a lot ongoing in the child care tax, credit tax, grant program. I mean there's a ton of reports coming out, there is a ton of webinars happening. I mean there's a lot that we have to cover today. But the title of today is Moms First, which is a coalition. Check them out. Moms First slash. Bcg Report on Child Care Benefits, roi. And what does UPS, steamboat, etsy, fast Retailing and Secretny offer as child care benefits? They shared exactly what they do and the impact that they have had, and we will talk about that today. That was a good one. First things first, about that today. That was a good one. First things first, the Century Foundation. If you have not heard of the Century Foundation, they did a report that looked at care policies across our states here in the US and can you guess which state got an A?

Speaker 1: 1:47

Massachusetts. Nope, try again. Did any state get an A?

Speaker 2: 1:56

How did you know?

Speaker 1: 2:01

You bet on this for a bit.

Speaker 2: 2:02

I didn't feel like you knew that it's going to be an A and then, yeah, but in this road, but I don't feel like anything. That is that be that. So unfortunately, um, I actually there's probably a pro and a con here, right. Unfortunately, nobody got an a. I do believe there were some states that got a b, um, but what I've also seen start to happen is, once you start grading somebody, people start getting their shit together, and so that is actually on the webinar. That's what I saw. I think there were a couple of representatives from a couple of different states that were like yeah, unfortunately we got a D, like that's not where we want to be. Yeah, unfortunately, we got a D, like that's not where we want to be, but now we have a framework that I'm bringing to the legislator to show where we're at, you know, and then it becomes a, a fear of missing out thing. So, uh, pro and con for something like this.

Speaker 1: 2:55

Yeah, I feel like a lot of the challenges I mean, we've gotten feedback in some of these conversations is there isn't a great framework to grade this. A lot of it is being tackled for the first time, so I think there's a massive step forward, at least in having something to attach to.

Speaker 2: 3:12

So this report I believe it's going to try to be annual Again it's published by the Century Foundation in partnership with Caring Across Generations. They updated their methodology on how they're tracking different things and it essentially highlighted the grades on supportive family policies and worker rights, which ultimately revealed the gap in policies. So check it out. I'll link to it in our LinkedIn article which, by the way, I'm not sure where we're at Like I stopped counting after 500.

Speaker 2: 3:45

You ran out, of fingers Ran out of uh, uh, ran out of uh email addresses. Yes, uh, part of the um report. Essentially, what it does is it says care work, whether paid or unpaid, it's essential and that work continues to have the lack of recognition that's needed and compensation. When we look at child care providers, how much they're paid, I believe I chatted with an organization, tafe, throughout Indiana. Their average care provider was making $36,000 a year. Minimum wage was half. That is raising the next generation and they're being paid 36,000 a year Like we got to do. We're doing something about it, basically because that's a, that's a commercial center. But when you look at a licensed home daycare provider, I mean they're making a hundred 120,000 when they're full, yeah yeah.

Speaker 2: 4:59

The um century foundation also talked about recent changes in federal policies. So there were legislative wins, like the American Rescue Plan Act and the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act. The Dobbs decision represents a major setback for all that know about it. It really highlights the importance of supportive care policies. And then the report also evaluated the impact of recent federal actions on care policy and rights. The report itself analyzed how these states are implementing policies such as paid leave, child care policies, home care services. The top five states, if you didn't know, maybe actually just play a game, doug. What do you think the top five states are? Again, none of them got an a.

Speaker 1: 5:47

Hey, but top is mass One of them. Mass is one of them. Mass is one of them. Um, we're going to stay in our like progressive lane, so give me California.

Speaker 2: 5:59

California's on the list.

Speaker 1: 6:01

Okay, give me hey list. Okay, give me washington no sir. Okay, oregon, yes sir um, I'm trying not to cheat because I know you have this on the notes. Um, michigan, nope, all right, you're done. The next two are Colorado and Minnesota.

Speaker 2: 6:28

So Oregon, massachusetts, california, colorado, minnesota which that actually tracks with a lot of the stuff that I've been seeing like articles that are coming out, the lowest scoring states lack comprehensive care policies, which just highlights the disparities between these states. Some of the recommendations for building a care infrastructure was basically more investment is needed. That's probably the answer to almost everything. So they suggested legislations and initiatives like the Child Care for Working Families Act and the HCBS Access Act and guess what? They called for? A cohesive approach Like surprising. So Century Foundation was a great webinar. I'll put a link to the report if you want to check out your state. The next cool thing is the Michigan Caring for Michigan's Future. Tell me about that, douglas.

Speaker 1: 7:31

Yeah. So goal of this program was to create 1,000 new child care programs, I believe, by 2025. And we are already past that threshold. So a year ahead of schedule, we've already crossed 1,000 new childcare programs, and essentially the programs were targeted towards three areas the recruiting and training of new staff, local incubation funds and innovation funds to encourage local initiatives to expand childcare access. And. Uh grant programs for licensing materials and curriculum for new centers or home daycares that wanted to start up. Um, so we know expanding supply is a massive part of the challenge, uh, here. So kudos to Michigan for putting something in that not only was heavily utilized but already had a schedule.

Speaker 2: 8:27

Um, as far as hitting their goals, Do you think childcare in space would be part of the incubate Like? Would it qualify for the incubation funding?

Speaker 1: 8:39

There's only one way to find out. Let's, let's get working on it. Well, I was going say there's a contract awarded for a railway on the moon. I mean conductors, they're gonna need a daycare. I think there's okay, here.

Speaker 2: 8:57

Here is something else, also this tangent here, on another thing that I saw that I sent to one of our colleagues in our government space. This was part of Uh, let's see here this was in the so, senator Murray, part of the Senate Appropriations Committee. There was the 1.2 trillion spending law that Congress cleared last month and it had a billion dollars for a single year of childcare and early education programs. Okay, if you keep reading a lot of this, one of the things that was just surprising to me and I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but this is where innovation comes in Murray secured $277 million in this year's military construction funding bill to establish guess how many new child care development centers on installations to provide military families with more child care options. Just how many $277 million. How many centers are they creating? How many 20.

Speaker 1: 10:20

No, they're creating six.

Speaker 2: 10:21

I thought I was being pessimistic at 20 that means it's 48 million dollars per new facility. Now we are all for government support. I mean 100, it's part of the equation to build a sustainable model, yeah, but $48 million for one facility. I mean there's so many different options you could do to increase supply. I mean we know companies that are working with the government program that are doing this, that are deploying dollars in like a 5X fashion're being. They're able to provide supply significantly cheaper than the incumbents are today. So these things I bet they're going to be badass like they definitely are going to be badass, but 48 million per who got that contract?

Speaker 1: 11:10

yeah, I mean you gotta, you gotta hash it down to the seat level and look at capacity, but at the same time I mean that outpaces even some of the on-site builds we've looked at significantly.

Speaker 2: 11:22

Yeah, I mean we heard Tyson building an on-site and I think it was 5 million and that was for, I want to say, like 170 seats. So is this one going to be like 1,000 seats? I mean, it'd be interesting to see. I'm going to try to keep tabs on this one, but I did send this out to our government correspondent and she was like, wow, yeah, so that was a little tangent. Next up, let's talk about Oklahoma, which was not in the top five for care policies by the Century Foundation. But again, it didn't just look at child care, the report, and it also actually did not include any recent programs. So, like this, oklahoma one, because it started on January 1st, was not included in the report. So next year it should. But this was a tax credit for family caregivers. And what's a family caregiver? Doug, do you know what a family caregiver is?

Speaker 1: 12:27

But in the family that gives care to another in their family.

Speaker 2: 12:31

That would be it, and it was implemented January 1st 2024. It's the first of its kind. The goal was to ease the financial burden on unpaid family caregivers by offering them a tax credit for their expenses, based on the care recipient's needs. It applies to out-of-pocket expenses for eligible caregiving. It's tailored for caregivers of veterans or those with dementia-related diagnoses. The legislative support was House Bill 1029. It was named the Care for Caregivers Act, championed by House Majority Leader Tammy West, and emphasizes financial relief for family caregivers. Majority leader Tammy West, and emphasizes financial leave for family caregivers. This is a first of its kind, targeting the unpaid caregivers which we typically call in manufacturing employers, the friend, family, neighbor now which are typically unpaid. Eligibility and benefits covers 50% of eligible caregiver costs, includes home modifications, medical equipment and more capped based on income with a 1.5 million state state cap annually. Now is that 1.5 million? That's 1.5 million, not per person, that's for like everybody. So yeah, so you use, you use it first come, first serve. Probably yeah, and it'd be interesting.

Speaker 1: 13:56

Use that first come, first serve, probably, yeah, and it'd be interesting to see the uptake on it. You know this is when we talk about investing right into you know. You know the future, the present right, Whatever it is like. This is a huge burden that's carried, you know, by a lot of caretakers within their own families and I think, with you know, kind of the generational changes coming, it's going to continue being an issue. We hear about it a lot and so I hope it's foundational for many more things to come and expanding it, you know, hopefully to even childcare and, you know, extended so many things, so many things programs like this can impact.

Speaker 2: 14:42

They say that there are 490,000 family caregivers just in Oklahoma. It addresses the 6.6 billion annual unpaid care that's provided. That's what they estimate. Is there a little bit of a um a gap there, so between those two numbers.

Speaker 1: 15:01

Yeah, you know, I mean it's obviously not intended to cover the entire uh thing, but that feels like a very big disparity between those numbers. A step in the direction, by all means, but uh, yeah, that is. That is a bit of a step up from $1.5 million on the cap to the amount of care. But the goal isn't to alleviate the entire burden, it's to take off some of the burden. I guess I mentioned.

Speaker 2: 15:28

A lot goes into that $6.6 billion number number, yeah, so if you think you know one, 1.5 million. Let's say everybody claims 3 000, that's 500 caregivers. Basically, 500 unpaid caregivers are going to get three thousand dollars, but they have 490 000 family caregivers. So you want to do the math on that?

Speaker 1: 15:52

but the biggest way to move the needle is is is to get people using it and show the impact of it and be able to expand it. Getting something in place is noble and worthwhile, even if it's capped. The biggest thing is letting people know about it, the ease of use and show the impact of it. I mean, I don't think we've seen anything where the impact hasn't been there, as long as there's a way for people to utilize it effectively.

Speaker 2: 16:20

Yep, and we'll talk a little bit about that when we review the Moms First event that was in Washington, where they partnered with Boston Consulting Group to show what the impact of child care benefits are for an employer. Why don't we talk a little bit about Georgia? You know, step in the right direction. What's Georgia doing?

Speaker 1: 16:40

Expansion of the child care tax credit. Clean and simple. Increases the tax credit from $3,000 to $4,000 per dependent, so it's in about a $50 tax savings per child. Comes into effect the 2024 tax year. So now so file taxes in 25 in Georgiaorgia. Uh, as a family, uh, you're going to see an extra tax break there. I was introduced by state rep daniel, who's a mother of four, and was actually passed unanimously in both the house and senate, which is, um, I think, a really interesting point, because you don't see that many things these days pass unanimously, especially in states that tend to have, you know, a little bit more contesting, uh, within the state and house and senate, um and uh, you know, ultimately step in the right direction yeah, fifty dollars, though you know that's gonna.

Speaker 2: 17:35

It's a step in the right direction. Good for you, georgia. You're you're being called out on the tax break breakdown, so like that's got to give you some press.

Speaker 1: 17:44

Right, yeah, I mean, this is. This is why they did it at the end of the day.

Speaker 2: 17:50

Well, another state that, uh, I believe scored low on the care report report but is on the tax break breakdown is Alabama. There was a bill, and it's not passed yet, but HB 350A that was introduced March 21st 2024. So that was about a week ago by Representative Anthony Daniels, democrat. 25% through the legislative process. More child care and tax credits to incentivize employers. So this one's specific to employers. So Alabama employers check this out. Hb 358. It's a child care tax credit for working Alabama I believe that's what it's called Gives child care tax credits to employers and aims to boost workforce participation rates, which, across Alabama, are actually one of the lowest. Child care providers in the state are understaffed by 25 percent. Encourages businesses to add on-site child care and manufacturing. Offers up to 2K in tax credits or direct payments to providers. And the report said every $1 invested in early childcare saves seven in correctional expenses. Easy, easy sell One equals seven.

Speaker 1: 19:03

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 19:04

Good for you, Alabama.

Speaker 1: 19:06

Curious what goes into the correctional expenses bucket, but we can dive into that.

Speaker 2: 19:11

That's on our other podcast. Yeah, some other news about our podcast. We've, uh, noticed the name of our podcast is the tax break breakdown and if you try to step outside of this, step out of the side of us, which we know what it's about, I would say correct me if I'm wrong. If you looked at it as somebody scrolling through Spotify, you'd go, oh, it's about taxes. Like that doesn't appeal to me. But that's not really all that we talk about. We specifically talk about child care, tax credits, whether today there was some employee family stuff and then we throw in some government stuff and most of it's supposed to be for employer. But, doug, are we going to change our name? Do you want to change our name?

Speaker 1: 20:01

We might have to, but we definitely. We've hyper focused on child care for a reason, and you know. So I think, I don't know, maybe, maybe, maybe we think about it a little bit and I'm going to propose a name. Maybe next episode. Okay, go ahead.

Speaker 2: 20:18

I will propose the child care tax break breakdown. It's a stretch from where we're at today. They're throwing it out there. You could throw it right on back if you don't like it.

Speaker 1: 20:29

Let's roll with it. Let's roll with it.

Speaker 2: 20:31

All right, official name change has happened. We are all in favor. Say aye, aye. All opposed say nay, no, nays. The eyes have it. Child care tax break breakdown. I gotta change all of our materials now as I.

Speaker 1: 20:53

I feel for you, man, but I believe in you thank you all right.

Speaker 2: 20:58

Well, let's get into the main topic today, which is a personal milestone of me personally. Uh, also a milestone, I think, for moms first and the b Consulting Group working together. A milestone for the companies that were there. But this was an event that was held at the US Chamber of Commerce in Washington DC, where myself and a colleague of mine got to go and attend the event at the US Chamber of Commerce and, yes, I had a badge, they gave me a badge and I had to go through the metal detector. They let you in, still, they let me in. It was official. I got in and I was just thinking on the cab ride there, the Uber ride. Sorry that, wow, three and a half years and I'm in Washington DC talking about child care policies and seeing companies that are now front and center of events like this and Boston Consulting Group. That's like yep, their data's right. So personal milestone to be there. I wish I would have gotten a better photo, like outside of the building. Uh, but I was there, no one can take that from me and they brought together. So moms first, and Boston consulting group brought together innovators like companies, like upwards was one of them. You haven't heard of upwards, check them out yeah, we are familiar with them but also other child care innovators as well. So folks that were doing on-site, unique on-site facilities and folks that were focusing just on tax programs. And then they also invited companies like UPS, steamboat, fast Retailing, synchrony and Etsy to have a panel.

Speaker 2: 23:00

And the report itself is titled the Employee Benefit that Pays for Itself, and so this is like a 10-page report. I also think that there's a white paper that's supposed to come out that goes into detail about their methodology, but that also could be the report. I'm going to share the top five highlights of the report and I'll link to the report in our post. The first one this is again for employers. Retaining as few as 1% of eligible employees can cover the cost of child care benefits. That's huge, it is. That's huge, it is. All five companies across all industries and sizes because you have Etsy and a UPS saw a positive return. The highest was 425%, so a 425% return when investing in child care benefits. They also saw that it helped employees. So these benefits helped employees avoid more than two weeks of absences annually, and as they talked to the employees at these companies, they realized that 86% of respondents said that they were more likely to stay with their employer because of their child care benefits and that directly supported retention.

Speaker 1: 24:23

So let me, let me ask you a question off of those. Do any of those surprising?

Speaker 2: 24:29

No, no, they do not In the report, they do. I know that they're talking about like these are like the major findings in the report, though they break it down. So the 425%, it wasn't an outlier but it was the top performing one. You can check the other companies. They're still pretty substantial, but I know that like the headline is 425%, but that was one company, but still the other ones again, we're still in the hundreds uh of percent of on a return. And the important thing is, you know we've been saying this and now Boston consulting group has put their name behind the methodology for it. So I think that gives gives a little bit more weight to the calculations that we together yeah, I mean so much of this is.

Speaker 1: 25:23

I mean, like I said, you and I have been doing this for a while now and I think every program we've analyzed, right everything comes out significantly above you know, break even, right is it? Is it always 400? No, have we seen that number or bigger before? Absolutely, yep, um, and we've had those conversations a lot of times. They can get met with skepticism, right, because you know we're using a lot of data to try to get to to the right points. We have to make some assumptions and like the big thing, just as we talked about, with the report cards is.

Speaker 1: 25:56

We start measuring it, we put it out here, we put the weight of institutions behind it. It starts to become more accepted right, and the impacts are there's more belief and faith that this is something that is in. What it needs to be, is more progressive than historically what's been provided, and so the more people that see that the only good things come from it.

Speaker 2: 26:23

Couldn't have said it better myself. The other interesting part, because one of the things I think, uh, well, I I was able to speak with Boston consulting after, and they confirmed some of the challenges that we have when asking employers hey, how do you track absenteeism related to reason X? Childcare is one of the reasons A lot of employers don't actually track all the way down. When it comes to turnover, too, reasons for turnover it is a challenge for a lot of companies to track this type of stuff. Uh, and they confirmed that it was a challenge for them. So they had to invent a methodology similar to some of the turnover formulas that we've done, which I'm talking to them pretty close on on how we view how to do it. Uh, but like productivity and absenteeism, like how do you actually do that? They had to do surveys to get some qualitative data from it. But, um, they identified four areas across these companies recruitment and retention, job satisfaction, career progression, productivity and presence. So this is this is where they identified. We looked at it. We look at it, similar right. Like retention, absenteeism, job satisfaction. We have had several employers that are like I will there's one large retailer that their whole value prop is line of sight to management, yep, and so career progression is really, really important to them, and then productivity and presence, I'd say, is important on the manufacturing side.

Speaker 2: 28:07

So, uh, let's talk about what do these, each of these companies, offer? Cause I think there there are a lot of HR operations, people that say, like, what are other people doing? Like, what does this? What does a childcare benefit even look like? Well, I'm going to tell you and Doug's going to nod his head and laugh Steamboat, which is a ski resort. I'm not sure where Steamboat is. I've never been Colorado, which again was in the top five states. So, think about this you have a seasonal organization heavily in certain seasons. Think about this you have a um, seasonal organization heavily in certain seasons, uh, large presence in one central area, rural area, and, um, they were challenged with there was lack of daycare supply and one of their centers closed. So they had the challenge of, like, what's their strategy? And I think there's a couple of different things that they could have done, but what they felt was best was a near site childcare center, and so they ended up getting support from the state of Colorado and I actually talked to the HR lady there. They would not have done the HR center if they didn't get that tax credit. It would have been way too expensive.

Speaker 2: 29:24

And when you hear an on-site center, though, everybody does need to realize it's not that it's free. Employees don't get the child care center for free. In a lot of cases there are some employers that heavily subsidize it. In this case, employees get 20% off the the facility and they get priority. So the business of the child care center it's still a business. It can't lose money, um, and so they're getting. They give 20 off, which is it's better, nothing, but it likely still doesn't solve everybody's problem.

Speaker 2: 30:04

But I don't have the stats handy. But there was a fair amount of usage. Fast Retailing. They give a monthly $1,000 stipend and it could be used up to three years for children up to six and a half years old. That's $12,000 a year. That's significant. That was one of the coolest ones UPS they did do. Their data came from a pilot that they ran where they offered emergency on-site child care at UPS warehouse facility for hourly workers. That is what they were piloting and, from what I hear, they're expanding Synchrony, the financial company.

Speaker 2: 30:50

They offer 60 days of backup care annually. It's a mix of a reimbursement and backup care provided by a vendor. So 60 is a lot. I only typically 60. I've seen 60, but at like law firms and uh finance companies, obviously, where it's more traditional workers, nine to five higher income, but I the most I've seen is like 40. So they have 60 days and they don't just require you to um, they don't require you just to use the credit on whatever vendor system this is. They you can do a reimbursement so you can say, hey, I paid for, you know, emergency care out of network and I'm asking for a reimbursement, and then they'll, they'll. There's a conversion to cash.

Speaker 1: 31:44

Like that reimbursement, and then they'll, they'll, there's a conversion to cash like that. Did they do you know if they allowed that for, like the friends and family network, or does yes, it'd have to be a facility? They did, that's great, they did um etsy.

Speaker 2: 31:53

Etsy was one of the companies that um has been doing this. The longest they've invested in child, the longest. They have backup care up to $4,000 annually of credits, so that's probably about 15 days, 12 to 15 days. Credits are usually 300 to 350, but they also offer a $1,000 annual work-life stipend which can go towards childcare. So moms first great personal event. This shows that this is what companies are doing. And then Boston Consulting came in and said give me all your data. Let me crunch some numbers and found that there was a positive ROI, which is exactly what we've been saying for the last three and a half years.

Speaker 1: 32:35

I have one more fun fact for you from this. Hey, give me a fun fact. This, hey, give me, give me a fun fact. Episode three, uh, of the tax break breakdown. We spoke about the employer-based child care design lab out of colorado that was the program that steamboat used, oh nice.

Speaker 1: 32:54

So it clicked for me when I saw they saw steamboat in this and I've been looking for it. So I just went back and like tore notes from that one and looked on the site that was like one of the ones that was approved for that program, um, so so we were onto that. Uh, not at the beginning that program launched before we we started the the uh the podcast, but it was one of the first programs we highlighted. Um that, as that is exciting. See, that's kind of coming full circle.

Speaker 2: 33:23

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